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Kathleen
Reply with quote  #1 
This is in regards to Ocwen Bank. If anyone knows anything about this, please commment.
1. First, I am not in default or late on my conforming Ocwen Loan.
2. Received a call from Ocwen (customer service in India) syaing they would do a Note Modification. I am a Realtor and know the difference between a note mod. and a forbearance.
3. Spoke to them after questioning them to make sure it actualy was Ocwen..this is always sketchy.
4. Dharmesh in India promised a possibility of getting a 6.030% fixed rate, 30 yr rate. I confirmed with him nothing else on the note would change except them terms. I said ok, I'll go over my updated financial info. So he said great, took the info verbally. Said I will hear from him in 5 days.
5. Two weeks later I get a call from India Ocwen again, did I get my Forbearance? I said no, they faxed it and by golly it is a Forbearance. After 7+ phone calls to Ocwen (all of who are in India) saying I didnt ask or agree to give my financial info to them for a Forbearance.. I was willing to give this very personal info to them only for a Note Modification.
6. Basically they have told me over and over this Forbearance (which is what the Document is called at the top of the 4 pages) is a Note Modification but that Ocwen only has this one type of paperwork and they use it for everything. I said I wil not sign a document that says I am in default, no grace period etc. etc. etc.The rate does chage to 6.030% which is very tempting.
7. I think I am being a bit railroaded by Ocwen who is acting like they are doing me a favor...but basically are doing a bait and switch. Should I report this to someone?

Any comments on this? I would love the 6.030% fixed rate (currently at 8.5%).

Kathleen

0
Ohio
Reply with quote  #2 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathleen

2. Received a call from Ocwen (customer service in India) syaing they would do a Note Modification. I am a Realtor and know the difference between a note mod. and a forbearance.


Just out of the blue?? Did you ask them why they were offering this to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathleen

3. Spoke to them after questioning them to make sure it actualy was Ocwen..this is always sketchy....
.... I said ok, I'll go over my updated financial info. So he said great, took the info verbally. Said I will hear from him in 5 days.


 I won't even go there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathleen

.... I said I wil not sign a document that says I am in default, no grace period etc. etc. etc.The rate does chage to 6.030% which is very tempting.


Admitting default, ambiguous terms is tempting? Why would this be tempting for you? This is something only a desperate person would agree to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathleen

7. I think I am being a bit railroaded by Ocwen......


 You think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathleen

I would love the 6.030% fixed rate (currently at 8.5%).


So why not refinance?

Kathleen,
Something is not right with this picture. I suspect there are troubles with your loan that you are not telling us.

Something tells me you will take the deal. Good luck if you do.

 
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Moose
Reply with quote  #3 
Kathleen - as you should be aware of, "forbearance" has a legal definition that is vastly different than a "loan modification."

Just for the audience (THIS ISN'T LEGAL ADVICE), one sets up an agreement between you and the servicer the other actually modifies the loan and the terms include terms that actually modify the agreement between the servicer and the note holder.

Also: Ocwen rarely handles a "conforming loan" unless it is within their VA group.

Yes, you should report it because they are trying to defraud you, but what good it will do depends on the state you live in. The Feds have an alarmingly hands-off attitude toward Ocwen because of the VA contract award. HUD or FTC hardball with Ocwen might call into question the administration's bizarre reasoning in letting a known predator handle VA properties.

The danger is they now know you're interested and they know your financial situation.  Chances are if you don't sign on, you're about to be ground through the credit-rating destroying artificial late-payment or force-placed insurance/escrow scam.

Get out. Now. Before they get a chance to trash your credit. Even if you have to pay another percentage for a couple of years that's better than what might happen to you.

Moose

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William A. Roper, Jr.
Reply with quote  #4 
BEFORE you start VOLUNTARILY giving up ANY financial information OVER THE TELEPHONE, you should have simply told them to PUT THEIR OFFER IN WRITING and to send you the proposed contract.  You should have ASKED THEM to indicate to YOU IN WRITING the criteria used to determine whether to actually go forward with this "loan modification".

Without knowing anything else about your mortgage, it is hard to understand what else might be going on here.  But your mortgage might have involved ORIGINATOR FRAUD or an audit might have shown that some of the loan paperwork, such as the Truth-In-Lending Disclosure was done improperly. 

If so, there might be some sort of RESPA rescission remedy, which you might waive if you were to enter into a forebearance agreement.

The loan might have been subject to a REQUIRED repurchase by the original mortgage investor due to fraud or some failure to conform to lending or underwriting guidelines.  In this case, the mortgage pool REQUIRES that the originator repurchase the loan or substitute another loan.  In such a case, they might actually have TROUBLE re-selling the loan absent some sort of indemnification, release or waiver of RESPA or TIL rights, etc.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT SIGNING A FOREBEARANCE AGREEMENT CONTAINING THESE SORT OF TERMS IS PURE INSANITY.  If your interest rate is too high and you have a good loan to value you should refinance.  If your property already has negative equity, then you need to do some careful assessing of your situation.

REAL ESTATE PRICES ARE GOING DOWN AND WILL CONTINUE TO FALL FOR SOME TIME, ESPECIALLY IN THOSE MARKETS WHERE PRICES WERE HYPERINFLATED BY THE SPECULATIVE BUBBLE.  IN SOME MARKETS, PRICES WILL PROBABLY FALL IN EXCESS OF 50%.  
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Mike Dillon
Reply with quote  #5 

In addition to the great advice already offered:

- Check your credit to see what sort of damage may have been caused because of this.

- Talk to an attorney ASAP to find out how to properly memorialize the unsigned forbearance agreement for when - ooops - I mean IF it shows up with signatures on it somewhere down the road. Possibly as simple as typing up a one page notarized affidavit stating that you never signed that particular document and recording both docs at your county registry. But get actual legal advice on that just to be safe.

- Talk to the attorney, your state banking commission, and possibly your AG about the differences in offers that were made to you and what you agreed to vs. what showed up. Granted, all of the negotiations were made over the phone so I'm guessing that you don't have any recording of it to prove that a note modification was offered as opposed to a forbearance agreement. But it's worth getting a legal opinion on - especially since the offer, while it may have been made by a duly authorized employee of a United States corporation, was made (assumedly) internationally, by telephone, by an unknown individual with unknown authorization, claiming to work for Ocwen.  

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William A. Roper, Jr.
Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted By Mike DILLON
Granted, all of the negotiations were made over the phone so I'm guessing that you don't have any recording of it to prove that a note modification was offered as opposed to a forbearance agreement. But it's worth getting a legal opinion on - especially since the offer, while it may have been made by a duly authorized employee of a United States corporation, was made (assumedly) internationally, by telephone, by an unknown individual with unknown authorization, claiming to work for Ocwen.


In most states, there is a statute of frauds that states that all contracts relating to interests in real estate must be in writing.  There are many variations on the statute of frauds.  Some states also require a written agreement where a contemplated contract involves more than a certain consideration or the contract is to be performed over an extended period of time (e.g. contracts involving performance over an interval exceeding one year).

It seems inconceivable to me that an oral offer of a loan modification of a promissory note and mortgage, deed of trust or other mortgage security instrument would be contractually binding, though there ARE SOME EXCEPTIONS.  Some of you might remember the Texaco v Pennzoil case.  As Mike points out there is an inherent PROOF PROBLEM.  
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Kathleen
Reply with quote  #7 
Thank you all for responding. This is fascinating.
1. I have not been late on my loan - ever.
2. My 3 year fixed adjusted 1/1/08 and went from $1,800 to $2,600 per month. I knew it was coming because I understand fixed rate vs. adjustable rates. Or at least the general idea....
3. Ocwen called me in January, first increased payment to be paid 2/1/08. I asked them why were they calling me, they said they wanted to offer me a Note Modification - all else will remain the same. I did not record anything when we spoke on the phone- but good golly, I should call them back and do it. It was incredible what this guy was saying. Another lady said she was in Florida (no way - way to Indian - nothing wrong with India but its hard to cover that accent up..)
4. I have not signed anything!!
5. I faxed them a note to 407-737-5693 saying they offered me a Note Modification and I got a Forbearance and that was not what we discussed. I wrote that I would not sign it And that I would report them to Consumer Affairs in California or the appropriate government entity.
6. They did call me back and proceeded to tell me this was the "blanket form" that Ocwen was using. That Ocwen was so busy that this was the only document they had for me..can you freaking believe that one!

My Questions to you all:

Can this actually affect my credit - I haven't signed anything? I reside in California.

The fellow at Ocwen confirmed verbally that I have not been late on any payments (then we went back and forth about why he thought it was such a great idea for me to sign a doc that says I have been late!)

Thank you all for the clear concise advice.  I have 6 home loans of which 2 are adjusting this year...so I was hoping for a note modification so I wouldnt have to pay $6K for refinance...on 3 loans = $12K. I live on my credit rating.

Kathleen
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Kathleen
Reply with quote  #8 
Almost forgot - the loan was conforming and for $320,000 on a condo in Hawaii. The market has come to a stand still over there. I did put 30% down.

My mortgage broker (20+ yrs experience) quickly said Do Not Sign or See A Lawyer First, and they might be doing it for their investors for some reason...and to NOT SIGN IT.
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Mike Dillon
Reply with quote  #9 
If for no other reason, Kathleen, you might want to pull your credit just to see if or how many times Ocwen dinged you in the process of formulating this "forbearance modification" for you. Knowing that your credit rating is that important to you - as it should be to everyone - I'd want to see if any damage has been done.


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Kathleen
Reply with quote  #10 
a) I can do that. Let me ask, when I pull my own credit, does this 'ding" me? It does cost money and I know I get 1 time per year for free from all 3 bureaus. If I pull it, does it hurt me?

I also understand that there are different type of reports..some more in depth than others...is this correct? and if so, from whom sall I get my report (with all 3 bureaus info on it) Because if I am going to pay for it, might as well get a good complete and easy to read..

Once I get my report I will check on the dates they looked at it...is that on the reports? Curious if it was before or after my conversations with them.

b) I understand that I do Not have to give them "permission" to look my credit and I believe that the more times your credit is viewed by companies such as Ocwen it can lower your score because it appears that I may be acting to do something financially..ie getting a new loan etc etc and that
means I am a higher risk. Is this thinking correct?

c) Who should I contact to complain about Ocwen and their customer service insisting that a Forbearance is the same as a Note Modification and advising me to sign it? I am in California.

Really apreciate the help.
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Joe B
Reply with quote  #11 
Kathleen-

     You are entitled to one free report each year from each of the three agencies. If you go to http://www.annualcreditreport.com (NOT the ones you hear advertised on TV or radio), you can request your annual free report from each of them. If you have already used this for the year, just go to any of the three and pay for one. It is up to you if you want to look at all three; I would, because it is a relatively modest amount if you feel you are being mistreated! If I am not mistaken, each of the companies can pull all three reports. So a visit to Equifax (for example) should allow you to pull the others at their website. Again, if I am not mistaken you should be able to get three reports for around $30.00.

     There is actually some debate as to whether or not pulling your report "dings" you. In theory, the more times a report is pulled, it can negatively impact your credit. For most people, this is really inconsequential. Unless you are regularly opening new lines of credit, this should be a fairly modest concern for most of us. I think you would have to be pulling a great number of reports in a very compressed time frame for it to trigger a negative correlation. In other words, if someone inexplicably pulls a large number of requests for credit, it could signal an alarming pattern. I don't think this would apply in your case, unless I am not understanding your situation properly.

     There is actually another option you can exercise here to protect the number of "views" your report gets. You can ask to be removed from pre-authorized offers. Credit card companies regularly do credit searches on people, and then send unsolicited offers to people based on their reports. If you opt-out of this practice, you will limit the number of "views" by people from whom you have not requested; again, mitigating the concern of its impact on your score.

     As far as your last question, I would look for the most senior person in customer service first. See if you get satisfaction, and then go on from there. It is likely to get frustrating quick, which is why I would go to their website and try to identify someone who looks to be senior enough to have the authority to solve your problem, and junior enough to have bosses to whom you can go if they fail to solve your problem. Others here may disagree, but this is how I prefer to go about a problem like this.

     I think I have answered your questions. If I have failed in an area, let me know. Good luck.

JB
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Moose
Reply with quote  #12 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathleen
a) I can do that. Let me ask, when I pull my own credit, does this 'ding" me? It does cost money and I know I get 1 time per year for free from all 3 bureaus. If I pull it, does it hurt me?

In all things credit related, I recommend Denise Richardson:

http://www.givemebackmycredit.com

Particularly her blog:

http://givemebackmycredit.com/blog/


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathleen
c) Who should I contact to complain about Ocwen and their customer service insisting that a Forbearance is the same as a Note Modification and advising me to sign it? I am in California.

Really apreciate the help.


Start with the FTC - do the complaint thing, again not expecting a response but if no one reports it we can't ask them to actually do something.

Then, for California:

The list of resources below has been compiled for anyone that suspects that they may be a victim of any type of fraud or scam. The list was originally designed as a resource to report mortgage fraud, predatory lending scams and identity theft in California but may also serve those who are victims of many types of fraud in California. Other types of fraud may include:

  • Internet Scams
  • Phishing/Email Scams
  • Credit Card Fraud
  • Investment Scams
  • Financial - Debt Elimination
  • Business/MLM Scams
  • Etc.

FBI Field Offices, Mortgage Fraud
White Collar Crime Supervisor
http://losangeles.fbi.gov/
11000 Wilshire Blvd., Suite 1700, FOB
Los Angeles, CA 90024-3672
Phone: (310) 477-6565

White Collar Crime Supervisor
http://sacramento.fbi.gov/
4500 Orange Grove Avenue
Sacramento, CA 95841-4205
Phone: (916) 481-9110

White Collar Crime Supervisor
http://sandiego.fbi.gov/
Federal Office Building
9797 Aero Drive
San Diego, CA 92123-1800
Phone: (858) 565-1255

White Collar Crime Supervisor
http://sanfrancisco.fbi.gov/
450 Golden Gate Avenue, 13th Floor
San Francisco, CA 94102-9523
Phone: (415) 553-7400

Attorney General's Office
California Department of Justice
http://ag.ca.gov/consumers/mailform.htm
Attn: Public Inquiry Unit
P.O. Box 944255
Sacramento, CA 94244-2550
Phone: (916) 322-3360
Fax: (916) 323-5341

HUD Field Office
Fresno Field Office
2135 Fresno Street
Suite 100
Fresno, CA 93721-1718
Phone: (559) 487-5033
Fax: (559) 487-5191

Los Angeles Field Office
611 W. Sixth Street, Suite 800
Los Angeles, CA 90017
Phone: (213) 894-8007
Fax: (213) 894-8110

Sacramento Field Office
925 L Street
Sacramento, CA 95814
Phone: (916) 498-5220
Fax: (916) 498-5262

San Diego Field Office
Symphony Towers, Suite 1600
750 B Street
San Diego, CA 92101-8131
Phone: (619) 557-5310
Fax: (619) 557-5312

Santa Ana Field Office
Santa Ana Federal Building, Room 7015
34 Civic Center Plaza
Santa Ana, CA 92701-4003
Phone: (714) 796-5577
Fax: (714) 796-1285

HUD Regional Office
San Francisco Regional Office
600 Harrison St. 3rd Floor
San Francisco, CA 94107-1300
Phone: (415) 489-6400
Fax: (415) 489-6419

California Department of Corporations
Financial Services Division
http://www.corp.ca.gov/comp/fsdinst.htm
320 West 4th Street, Suite 750
Los Angles, CA 90013-2344
Toll-Free: (800) 347-6995 -- CA only
Phone: (213) 576-7690

Hope that helps.

Moose






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JCD
Reply with quote  #13 
FWW:

Ocwen will not and cannot do anything to the borrowers advantage. They cannot be trusted to anything other than commit further fraud. Unfortunately, they appear to have a special relationship with the folks in Washington, so don't expect to see much action from the Feds. In 2003, I contacted a few FBI offices, one of them is on the list Moose provided. At that time I was told by the agent on call that they would like to help but could not because the Ocwen Corporate Headquarters is located in another state (Florida). That said, it certainly doesn't hurt to call as many different agencies as you can. I think things may finally be changing for this despicable corporate criminal, but it will never be soon enough for their victims. The last time I checked, which was quite some time ago they had over 28,102 law suits pending. FTC has over hundred thousand complaints on file. I received about a years worth of complaints which, I requested under FOIA. It was about 3 inches thick and cost me over $50.00. Nobody, will ever be able to convince me that they didn't know exactly what Ocwen and the others were and are doing. 

Just my own opinion.

Best of Luck!


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Mike H
Reply with quote  #14 
    Ocwen services alot of US Bank securitizations. It could be US Bank is
following government quidelines and trying to rewrite notes into fixed from
adjustable. I would ask "who is Ocwen servicing with the loan, who is the
real owner of the current note and mortgage" then I would try to bipass
Ocwen and deal with the true party at interest. You could say " I don't believe a servicer has any power to modify a note so I want to deal with
the real party who owns the Note". It is alot easier to deal with US Bank
than with Ocwen.
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noodles
Reply with quote  #15 
JCD,
 
In reference to your post #13.
Please provide further details, as to which Governmental Sector you were able to retain the complaints from.
 
Please also explain "How you were able to use FOIA."
I've had no success getting any answers as to how many complaints have been filed, about our current Servicer, or EMC.
 
From having been told by FTC & HUD they couldn't release that information; to......    that info. is not provided to them in their computer systems.  That's obviously a crock of crap. after reading your post.
 
Thanks!
P.S. (btw Moose, yes I meant HUD in another post and not RESPA.)

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Kathleen
Reply with quote  #16 
Thank you all so so much. I can not believe the help I have received. very Inspiring in a time where everyone is so busy.

In my free time (I have 14 month old twins!) and have a business....I will be getting my credit reports, asking to be opt-ed out of pre-authorized credit cards, writing a certified letter to someone at Ocwen, Contacting a Few Agencies about this crazy bait and switch, and try to find out who actual owns my Note!

Kathleen
0
Ohio
Reply with quote  #17 

14 month old twins???? Holy cow!!     Double the fun!

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DJorge44
Reply with quote  #18 
I have a few questions?

One, you were put in an adjustable mortgage when you put 20 or 30% down by a broker and you still trust him, why?

Second, I work in lending as well, and if I ever put someone in an ARM, they would have been contacted by me 60-90 prior to adjustment to get them out of it.

Third, you own several properties and this same mortgage broker put you in several arms.  Maybe you should find a more trustworthy and intelligent person.

I only have been in the business 4+ years but I knew then and know now ARMS on 2nd homes, investment properties, etc are bad ideas.

He should be able to get you 6% with NO COST (just title) and probably pay most of that too.

No offense, but I think you may want to go review your settlement statements and see how much in origination and how much in Yeild Spread Premium he made off you on each transaction
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Mary
Reply with quote  #19 

This is the worst company in the world. I had a loan with Ocwen and after extra fees and trying to trick me into a forbearance I sold my house but now before Ocwen sent someone from Florida to try and offer me $1000.00 to buy it, and not before I paid over twelve thousand dollars to keep it, and I was current on my payments. After I sold the house Ocwen sent me a statement saying I still owed two months payments they need to be sued and everyone who ever lost a house because of them should be paid double for their trouble.

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Sara
Reply with quote  #20 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathleen
This is in regards to Ocwen Bank. If anyone knows anything about this, please commment.
1. First, I am not in default or late on my conforming Ocwen Loan.
2. Received a call from Ocwen (customer service in India) syaing they would do a Note Modification. I am a Realtor and know the difference between a note mod. and a forbearance.
3. Spoke to them after questioning them to make sure it actualy was Ocwen..this is always sketchy.
4. Dharmesh in India promised a possibility of getting a 6.030% fixed rate, 30 yr rate. I confirmed with him nothing else on the note would change except them terms. I said ok, I'll go over my updated financial info. So he said great, took the info verbally. Said I will hear from him in 5 days.
5. Two weeks later I get a call from India Ocwen again, did I get my Forbearance? I said no, they faxed it and by golly it is a Forbearance. After 7+ phone calls to Ocwen (all of who are in India) saying I didnt ask or agree to give my financial info to them for a Forbearance.. I was willing to give this very personal info to them only for a Note Modification.
6. Basically they have told me over and over this Forbearance (which is what the Document is called at the top of the 4 pages) is a Note Modification but that Ocwen only has this one type of paperwork and they use it for everything. I said I wil not sign a document that says I am in default, no grace period etc. etc. etc.The rate does chage to 6.030% which is very tempting.
7. I think I am being a bit railroaded by Ocwen who is acting like they are doing me a favor...but basically are doing a bait and switch. Should I report this to someone?

Any comments on this? I would love the 6.030% fixed rate (currently at 8.5%).

Kathleen


This is exactly why we all keep saying "stay off the d*mn phone!!!".   Unless you record the conversation, you have absolutely no proof.  And yes, it is legal in some states for only one party to know.  But still...

There are some instances, you don't have to even sign a form to get a forebearance.  Been there/done that...  They may offer and you agree to a forebearance and then they tarnish your credit even though you thought the agreement was different from reality.

So, I too think this has been a hard lesson for you.  Now it's time to refinance the house and chalk up the closing costs as a lesson.

Mary, I am sorry to hear your story!  You are not alone though...

S
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Julie
Reply with quote  #21 
Hi,

I work for an investor and view hundreds of Ocwen loans. Recently I was in a meeting where they informed us of Ocwen now blindly modifying loans in order to make it easier. A lot of times this is completely legit. I also heard Ocwen is reducing UPB right now, which is rare for a mod with most servicers.
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William A. Roper, Jr.
Reply with quote  #22 

Quote:
Julie said:

I work for an investor and view hundreds of Ocwen loans.  Recently I was in a meeting where they informed us of Ocwen now blindly modifying loans in order to make it easier. A lot of times this is completely legit.  I also heard Ocwen is reducing UPB right now, which is rare for a mod with most servicers. 


What Julie seems to leave out is that the purpose of most OCWEN modifications is to make it easier for OCWEN to foreclose!

This IS completely legit!  It is a legitimate TRICK that OCWEN and other similar criminal enterprises have been using to obtain new information from the borrower AND to get the borrower to waive various rights and to confess OCWEN's asserted right to enforce the alleged note. 

OCWEN has documentation and proof problems with many of the loans it services.  But IF they can get the borrower to ADMIT to their indebtedness and confess some loan balance, this modification can then be used later as a backstop to the other documentation and proof problems.

Be VERY WARY about giving out ANY financial information to OCWEN voluntarily.  Show copies of ANY paperwork they give you to a competent foreclosure defense lawyer before signing.  You are probably waiving all of the prior fraud in origination and servicing and might be confessing delinquency and/or default.  Also note that OCWEN may report any modification as a negative event which could affect your credit.
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